AGLOCO™ and Other Stupid Math Tricks
Recently I (real name Dave Starr, I have been talar in some on-line circles since 1999 or so) got into a discussion on the subject of AGLOCOâ„¢ a new Chinese make money craze that is sweeping the ranks of the probloggers and some other network communities. I have posted rather strongly on this issue because unlike a lot of the gullible and starry-eyed currently roaming the ‘Net I have my PhD from the school of hard knocks and I have seen these kind of schemes before. As we say in Colorado, this ain’t my first rodeo.
I really wasn’t that interested in taking on the issue because I have plenty else to spend my time with but when I see men as obviously intelligent and educated as John Chow getting so passionate as to deny the simple reality of the dictionary or the principles of mathematics I began to take an interest. When John actually seemed to become a little hot under the collar about this I took a little more notice. I’ve read John’s blog for some time now, I admire his enthusiasm and the breath and scope of issues he writes about and is involved with on the ‘Net. However, when a man is mistaken he ought to acknowledge he is mistaken and not stray off into personal slanging an making assumptions about folks. Since this is obviously going to get too long to deal with on Darren Rowse’s ProBlogger, where the conversation first started, I’ll move it here so those interested can debate at will and the rest of the world need not even hear the noise. There’s also some very cogent dialog on this from Kumiko, a relative newcomer to the blogosphere it seems but a lady who has her head screwed on right, in my view. Her post(s) have also been picked up by Darren and the always level-headed Shoemoney who knows a thing or two about on-line and money.
Background:
This chain of events got started when Darren posted about his initial investigation/sigh-up with AGLOCO back on 5 Feb 07. I posted this somewhat pointed reply:
Dave Starr Says:
February 6th, 2007 at 12:14 pmInteresting to see some of the comments here, especially otherwise well educated people advising others to “look at Multi Level Marketing (MLM) from another perspectiveâ€. Whatever perspective you use to stare at a dog turd in your hand, it’s still a dog turd and you still wish you hadn’t picked it up to begin with, and you still have to decide whose yard to throw it in to get rid of it.
This is a Ponzi scheme, or pyramid scheme,(look them up, Google is your friend) pure and simple. The early adopters … the John Chow’s of the world (how many “I Love Darren†ads did he buy)? will make money, at the beginning… but all these parlor trick wonders depend upon otherwise educated people being seriously deficient in the math department. The number of people required to join each month to support the pyramid above them soon becomes larger than the world’s population and therefore there is no one left to join and the ridiculous house of cards collapses. The definition of an open mind does not include the suspension of belief in simple math.
Sorry Darren, this is a loser from day one.
Now that may seem a little rough … certainly did to John who in other comments clearly indicates he expects to get in and get out of this AGLOCOâ„¢ thing at a big profit … the fact that the profit may be at the expense of his “private army” doesn’t seem to be relevant. he responded thus:
John Chow Says:
February 6th, 2007 at 5:00 pmDave Starr – A pyramid scheme is when the guy at the top make all the money and the guy at the bottom makes next to nothing, right? Hmm, maybe you should check where you work. Assuming you have a job of course. It’s the biggest pyramid scheme in the world.
I think it’s time to move it off the comment string at Problogger.net. so I re-invigorated this semi-dormant blog of mine, and here goes.
@ John Chow, Hi John, hope you’re back from killing panadas …. this seems to be the only place to converse about this issue so I’ll respond to your kind comment:
- I didn’t define a pyramid the way you attributed to me … I and the FTC (I think they have a similar agency in Canada and most civilized countries) defines a pyramid scheme: ———- ….. they all share one overriding characteristic. They promise consumers or investors large profits based primarily on recruiting others to join their program, not based on profits from any real investment or real sale of goods to the public…. ———– I recommend anyone interested in a conversation, rather than a slanging match go here: http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.htm and read some actual informed, legal opinion.
- And just to clarify something, although it isn’t really any of your business, I don’t have a job, haven’t had one for many years now, I live by my own resources and investment income, most of it not from on-line sources. Can’t match your lavish parties and thousand-dollar meals, but I do quite nicely, thank you.
- I don’t know how the subject of my of my sources of income got into the picture here but I have noticed that is a frequent tactic of those with no effective rebuttal … change the subject. Anyway, back to this AGLOCOâ„¢ thing and your blatant promotion of same.
Regardless of what AGLOCOâ„¢ really ever turns out to be … and reading through their poorly edited ESL Terms Of Service I am now very glad I started this chain, there’s a lot more to write about, here’s the first an major flaw of all these multi-level “pryamidical” gimmicks. I think you realize this already, john, but for those who don’t, and can’t see the forest for the trees, read on:
- You claim over 5,000 sign-ups already. Thus you’re an impressive “local war lord” with an army of over 5,0000 … impressive.
- But a general’s first duty is to the welfare of his/her troops. What success rate do you expect for your “troops” John? Will they do 50% as well as you? Probably not … let’s say they attain 10% of your success and sign up 500 each.
- That’s 2.5 million people in your next tier. Assume the same 10% success rate for them … just 50 each and you’ll have an “army” of 125,000,000 or nearly 4 times the current population of Canada. That’s what I mean by the fact that these schemes are mathematically unsound.
In only a few iterations the number of “recruits” needed reaches ridiculous proportions. that’s not my judgement, it’s the judgement of the FTC (go back and read the reference above if you folks skipped over on the first trip) and as far as the People’s Republic of China, whose laws govern AGLOCOâ„¢, I’ll defer to someone who knows the PRC better than I do … I’ve been there on business 6 or 8 times, don’t intend to go back any time soon.
Enough already, I think, I’ll write more soon. John, Darren, anyone out there, the comments are open and I’ll be happy to hear any of them as long as they are not obscene, libelous and as long as you don’t drop links … linked comments will go immediately into the bit bucket, so if you would like to drop a link for a legitimate purpose … links to AGLOCOâ„¢ are not allowed, I already linked to them, then write me at: talar (at) talarsystems (dot) com and I’ll be happy to include them.
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A look at Agloco from a trading/finance point of view:
What Everyone Ought To Know About Agloco
Hi babak, I decided to fire this blog up again. I probably wouldn’t have allowed these links had I been looking, but hey, they’re there … so tell us, after a few monthsd, what are you doing with all your AGLOCO riches?
John Cjow already explained and made it clear why he promoted AGLOCO, and given his traffic I cancertainly see why he did. I wouldn’t have, personally, but I feel John has every right to maximize his profut. My issue with AGLOCO is the “little guys” who have no traffic, no ‘Net knowledge and will waste enormous amounts of energy flogging the AGLOCO deadhorse when they could doing something intellient and profitable.
[...] wrote about AGLOCO here several times and thos of you surprised by the announcement of AGLOCO’s demise might want to [...]